The end of the Eurosceptic

The more that people scrutinise and check facts for themselves, the less able the politicians are to deceive themselves and the public.  Following on from our exchanges with Roger Helmer, the always excellent EU Referendum offers a matter of fact piece about the enemy within.

What is clear, as some in the comments section have alluded to, it that it’s time to jettison the devalued and misleading ‘Eurosceptic’ label.  When it comes to the EU there are only two camps now, in or out, EUphile or Withdrawalist.  Any MP who votes in favour of any Bill or amendment that facilitates EU integration and closer union cannot, by definition, be a withdrawalist. Pragmatism is code for inaction.

When you look at the voting records of Tory MPs and MEPs, there are hardly any who consistently vote against handing further power to the EU. Less than a dozen out of over 300. If you want the UK to leave the European Union then don’t vote Conservative.  Like Labour and the Lib Dems, they are the enemy within, aided by a collection of ‘licensed dissenters’, Judas goats and useful idiots.

28 Responses to “The end of the Eurosceptic”


  1. 1 J (@bigjools_) 29/08/2011 at 8:52 pm

    Spot on. But I think we’ve known that since Cast Iron Dave’s famous promise.

  2. 2 ThomasJ 29/08/2011 at 9:42 pm

    Agree, spot on! It would be most interesting to notice an alike effort on the EUssr-query here in Sweden.

    Brgsd from the Bestcoust!
    /TJ

  3. 3 Uncle Badger 29/08/2011 at 10:01 pm

    Which leaves us with a problem. Assuming we vote for someone – who will it be?

    We keep being told that UKIP’s high command are bounders and I know from personal experience that their infantry are imbeciles, so what’s the alternative, short of revolution?

  4. 4 Trooper Thompson 29/08/2011 at 10:41 pm

    I’ve been saying the same out in my little plot of desert, but… “withdrawalist”? Hmm. can we do better than this as a banner? It makes me think of a certain birth-control method. Also, it is better to have a name which is positive, which says what we are in favour of rather than against, something which stresses that we are pro-sovereignty.

  5. 5 NickM 29/08/2011 at 11:22 pm

    The problem is that the majority of people in this country are “euro sceptic”. So many of them do not really know what the real position is, even now. One recent commenter asked why no one wanted an EU that was just a trading bloc.

    It is easy to despair of such folk. But it is a grave mistake to treat them as an enemy. What is needed is honesty, patient engagement and teaching; and not being hostile or patronising. Otherwise we will lose – again.

    In 1975 I voted to stay in the “common market”, a decision I have regretted for 30 years. I did so precisely because of my perception of the strident, factional and extreme nature of the “No” camp. It is essential we do not repeat that mistake.

    The other main plank of the “Yes” camp was to emphasise that we would be “isolated” outside the EEC. I was not influenced by this, but some people are fearful. Now this can be neutered by the fact that we stayed out of EMU and have not been “isolated”.

    No, we should not be fooled by the Tory claim of being the euroceptic party: in power they have acceded to everything going. But some of them are our friends.

  6. 6 Trooper Thompson 30/08/2011 at 12:43 am

    NickM,

    the first point to make is about the word: ‘eurosceptic’. I think it is an unhelpful word. It signifies a lack of enthusiasm for the EU project. It is thus a negative word, indicating what someone is against, but not what someone is in favour of. It is a definition that serves the other side, and I think it should be repudiated by everyone who wants to pull the UK out of the EU.

    We certainly should not despair of the large body of anti-EU sentiment in the country, but the reality is, if we want to get out of the EU, we cannot afford to wait for the ‘eurosceptic’ tories to act. They are part of a party which is wholly against pulling the UK out of the EU and which is furthering the EU’s plans every day, and we need to face facts about it.

    We must also assume that the ‘eurosceptic’ tories are not going to rock the coalition boat. Whatever is to be done, I expect, will have to be done without them. If they decide to get off their arses and join the fight, all well and good. Until that time they should be attacked for their cowardice and lack of principle. If they’ve got any red blood in their veins then we may shame them into action. If they go off and sulk, it only shows we were right.

  7. 7 Brian H 30/08/2011 at 7:20 am

    You’re Europhobes! Declaim it proudly.

  8. 8 George Silver 30/08/2011 at 7:40 am

    I don’t care if we are in or out of the EU. I don’t care if there is a Conservative or Labour government. I don’t care if we live in a Monarchy or Republic.

    It doesn’t matter what you call the “system” it will always have the same people at the top screwing the likes of you and me.

    Unless you want to be permanently at war with something that changes it’s spots and skin all the time in futile battle for what? Freedom?

    Freedom is in the hands and mind of the individual. Protect yourself from the “system” by removing yourself from it’s radar and living independently from it as much as possible. There are many ways to do this but people never do it they prefer to constantly fight for a new group of leaders that ALWAYS turn into the previous lot.

  9. 9 George Silver 30/08/2011 at 7:47 am

    Re my previous comment above

    Autonomous:- existing or capable of existing independently.

    Try it sometime.

  10. 10 Davey C 30/08/2011 at 10:20 am

    If there are many ways to do it “Off Radar George” then explain them to us. We’re all ears. We might even try it.

  11. 11 George Silver 30/08/2011 at 10:37 am

    First of all “Davey C” you should start thinking for yourself. A difficult concept but give it a try.

    Stop asking others how to do things.
    Start relying on yourself. (I know, I know it’s quite frightening)
    Stop relying on the “state” to help you.
    Look after your own health.
    Don’t vote or go onto the electoral role.
    Stop thinking of people in groups and races and start thinking of them as individuals.
    Get rid of notions of nationality or where your “home” is.
    Only have enough money in your bank account to pay bills.
    Never save with a bank.
    Never have any investments or savings with anything the “government” has it’s fingers in.
    Have your savings in real Gold and Silver.

    etc. etc.

    I will not go on as I suspect I’m wasting my time……………

  12. 12 Davey C 30/08/2011 at 10:50 am

    So, don’t see a doctor, don’t go on the electoral roll, put my money under my mattress or buy gold and silver and I’ll be off the radar? Never knew it was so simple.

  13. 13 George Silver 30/08/2011 at 10:54 am

    I don’t understand Davey C?

    What’s a smart-arse like you asking for advice for?

  14. 14 2nd Sight 30/08/2011 at 11:29 am

    If I can’t be a Euro-Sceptic, then I’ll be a British Loyalist (or a UK Loyalist if that’s more popular).

    But I feel it in my bones that the next few years will be so stressful for the European continent, & also for many places well beyond it, that the ridiculous EU & its bastard-child, the euro-zone, will collapse into irrelevancy. How will Britain fare? Badly, I fear, but hopefully not as badly as some on the continent. We can only wait-&-see!

  15. 15 NickM 30/08/2011 at 11:55 am

    Trooper Thompson, you have missed my point. I said “euro sceptic” because I was describing what most people in the country actually are. I was not describing us, who want to exit. And btw I think being sceptical is admirable.

    Do we want to win? Or just be purists? Don’t go in for “the strident, factional and extreme nature of the “No” camp”, of 1975, otherwise you will put off that “euro sceptic” majority. Yes, you will.

    That does not mean we should turn a blind eye to the truth that the majority of Tory politicians, especially Cameron, are only here for the beer and would sell their country down the river for another 5 years.

  16. 16 Davey C 30/08/2011 at 11:56 am

    I was expecting to learn something George. But seems like you’re all talk. If you’re off radar then I’m the Easter Bunny.

  17. 17 George Silver 30/08/2011 at 12:19 pm

    Well Davy C. A smart-arse dressed as an Easter Bunny. Well I never.

    What does the C stand for? Let me guess?

  18. 18 NickM 30/08/2011 at 12:47 pm

    Don’t let me stop a private quarrel, but Mr Silver, please tell us how you stay off the radar?

  19. 19 George Silver 30/08/2011 at 1:43 pm

    Hi NickM. I shouldn’t rise to the bait of people that only want to snipe rather than add anything useful to the debate.

    I didn’t actually say it was possible to stay off of the radar completely, unless you go about it professionally.

    What I was trying to say is that it is possible to use the system but to remain independent of it. Not to be too obvious a part of it. It just needs some thought. The first thing to do is to change ones mentality and think as an individual without any allegiance to being one of the voting, taxpaying “sheep” who are sheared every so often by the government and the financial system. It would take too long to explain in detail but as an example:- A person who is employed or has a pension is forced to pay tax and there is very little a person can do about it. The example of Gold and Silver in physical form is one of the keys to becoming independent. That is why governments hate precious metal. You are taxed on savings and investments and you are taxed by the government when they print money and devalue it. As I say it’s a complicated subject.

    The one thing a person can do is change their thinking. Don’t get hung-up on politics and whether we are in the EU or not. It doesn’t matter who is in charge because unless you are going to be a martyr you are not going to change the corrupt people who inhabit the corridors of power. People seem to believe that if the UK wasn’t in the EU everything would be rosy. Nothing would change you would still be a sheep in the meadow waiting to be sheared. Break out of the meadow. If a person doesn’t like the EU then just live in another country.

    Freedom:- It’s all in the mind.

  20. 20 Span Ows 30/08/2011 at 2:18 pm

    Anti EU (not Eurosceptic nor anti-Europe nor Europhobe)

  21. 21 Paul 30/08/2011 at 2:33 pm

    2nd Sight: …and immediately align yourself with mass murderers, torturers of innocents, fanatical religious bigots, and drug dealers. Fantastic.

  22. 22 Shevva 30/08/2011 at 2:40 pm

    Sorry George if you wanted to stay ‘Off Radar’ you should of asked your mum and dad not to have gotten you a birth certificate and gone from there.

  23. 23 Trooper Thompson 30/08/2011 at 2:48 pm

    NickM,

    I dare say I did miss your point, but never mind, it has led to a moment of revelation for me!

    If the options were total independence (whatever that means), some kind of ‘Europe of nation states’ which would be a looser relationship like EFTA, or full-blown EU super-state, the majority would probably plump for the second option, and this includes the ‘euro-sceptic’ people.

    At present, the pro-EU have captured the middle ground of this second option, so that those who favour it, remain sceptical but shy away from the strident ‘extremists’ calling for immediate exit, because of the false hope that the second option is still possible within the EU.

    What is necessary with regard to avoiding what you say happened in 1975 is to make it clear that this sceptical second option is not and never will be possible within the EU, and thus capture this middle ground, forcing the pro-EU people to occupy the ‘extremist’ position.

    Do you see what I mean?

  24. 24 Bellevue 30/08/2011 at 8:18 pm

    I understand what Mr Silver is trying to say (although how one gets off the radar is beyond me). I think he is right to say that whether we are in or out of the EU will not really make a difference. Richard North has been talking about this – our problem is with the political elite, whether in the EU or Westminster. We are ruled by unaccountable, unelected elites and I cant see that changing (short of a bloody revolution – which lets face it, aint gonna happen). It fills me with depression, but we are all going to end up dead anyway.
    I can see the logic of not keeping large sums in one’s bank account, or having savings in banks (for those of us blessed enough to have any money!) but I wish someone could explain to me how the buying-gold-and-silver thing works for the little, retired, without-much-money person. Come the apocalypse, can we use this gold to buy food, for example?

  25. 25 John 31/08/2011 at 1:47 am

    Bellevue..
    A short Act of Parliament will make the holding of physical gold illegal when paper money becomes worthless. It’s been done in the distant past and they will do it again if it threatens their grip on power.
    Better to invest in property and/ or land for growing food.

  26. 26 NickM 31/08/2011 at 11:48 am

    Trooper Thompson said: “it [is] clear that this sceptical second option is not and never will be possible within the EU” “Do you see what I mean?”

    I agree, and yes. But how can we convince the “ordinary” “euros ceptic” of that?

  27. 27 Trooper Thompson 31/08/2011 at 8:20 pm

    NickM,

    Good question. I will give it some thought and probably post something chez moi when I get the chance, but in essence I think the key is to have a clear exit strategy, which will then allow us to have a positive message to sell, and also be able to deal with all the straw man arguments, such as the ridiculous notion, very often implied, that leaving the EU will mean we will no longer trade with the EU, and I think also making the moral case for free trade with the world. I think the moral case, especially with regard to Africa, which is crying out for free trade, is very important.

    Somehow we have to change the game, because it hasn’t been going well for us these last 40 years.

  28. 28 Gallovidian 01/09/2011 at 8:23 am

    “Which leaves us with a problem. Assuming we vote for someone – who will it be?

    We keep being told that UKIP’s high command are bounders and I know from personal experience that their infantry are imbeciles, so what’s the alternative, short of revolution?”

    Erm, how about these chaps?

    “The nations of Europe should be free to trade and cooperate whenever it is mutually beneficial without being forced into a straightjacket of political and economic unification — which is neither desirable, ultimately practically unfeasible and which is guaranteed to create conflict rather than avoid it.

    Accordingly, a BNP government will withdraw from the European Union. ”

    No gray areas there!


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