Does UKIP have a secret position on EU withdrawal?

On the subject of withdrawal from the EU, there are other issues besides UKIP’s lamentable performance to focus upon, so it will be a relief to move on to other matters.  But before I do, there are a couple of things that need to be addressed here.

Firstly, a response to the comments on Raedwald’s blog following the recent argument between Richard, me and a couple of UKIP loyalists.

To describe me as an intellect is something of an insult to those people who really are.  The criticisms of UKIP on this blog are not fuelled by jealousy and there is no denigration of personalities.  What I’ve been doing is criticising UKIP for what I see as fundamental failures, caused in large part by the approach dictated by Nigel Farage.  If it is denigration to point out the failures, missed opportunities and questionable direction of Farage, or the boorish and patronising mentality of Bloom, then fair enough.  But this isn’t personal, this is criticism of terrible leadership.  I don’t agree that I’ve been egotistical.  These criticisms stem from frustration and disappointment at the way the Eurosceptic agenda is being undermined by a catastropically bad approach.

Further, to suggest as ‘Anthem’ does that my aim or that of Richard is to take over leadership of the cause is ridiculous.  We have both offered friendly advice, help and support to UKIP over the years.  It has been rebuffed because if the idea doesn’t originate within the armchair cabinet at UKIP HQ then it is considered a threat to Farage’s position.  I could not care less who leads the cause, my only concern is how they lead it.  But, in order to prop up Farage, the truth of the matter must be replaced with accusations of jealousy, self interest and personal ambition against the critics.

Then there is the need to reply to this from ‘Carnwennan’

Richard’s chief issue with UKIP seems to be that they have failed to explain to the public just how difficult it would be to leave the EU. A problem to which only he has a fully thought through plan.

Surely for UKIP to highlight these technical hurdles would be hugely counter productive. Far from a priority… unless you like that kind of thing, which only RN and AM do.

If you are an intellectual hammer, every problem looks like a nail, even those that no one else can see.

This again shows the point has been missed.  It is not a complex, technical argument for UKIP to explain that getting out of the EU is easy, but becomes difficult when starting to unpick all those treaties and regulations we have been signed up to over many years.  It is not complext to explain that before leaving we need to start negotiating what relationship we will have with the EU and secure continued access to the single market to protect UK commerical and consumer interests.  It is not rocket science to have the details in your back pocket so, when challenged by the likes of Open Europe and the CBI, you can go into more detail to give confidence to the business community that leaving the EU does not mean losing 3 million jobs or huge tariffs on our goods, while rebutting the politically motivated ‘economic arguments’ of the Europhiles.

Far from being counter productive, having a thought through plan would give reassurance to voters that UKIP is a safe pair of hands that has done its homework, knows how to achieve its stated goals and provides a genuine alternative to the lying and self interested mainstream parties.  So why are Farage and UKIP so dead set against it?  Decide for yourself.

Secondly, a criticism that has been directed at Richard and me is that we are outside the tent pissing in and should be inside pissing out.  We’ve tried that.  So have a good number of other sound, qualified and talented people who could have helped UKIP move things forward substantially – but instead have been picked off and driven from the party in case they become more popular than Farage.

When we have cited the lack of a plan or question marks about UKIP’s position, some of the tribal ‘UKIP can do no wrong’ crowd argue there is a plan and UKIP’s position is very clear.

They argue the media don’t give UKIP space to share the details, but go silent when we point out UKIP’s own communications channels, (website and magazine) do not reveal this information!  Most recently this group has featured Roger ‘Tallbloke’ Tattersall.  When we ask what the plan is or challenge the lack of position, they try to tackle the claim but always fall well short as reality defeats them.  This exchange on Twitter is a classic example.  It seems there is a UKIP position, but a UKIP candidate is not allowed or willing to speak about it and we as potential voters are not allowed to know about it:

It is a bizarre approach to reassuring voters, dangling a ‘neat’ position but then not detailing it when asked.  The ‘I know the plan and think it’s neat so trust me that all is good and run along’ doesn’t really cut it.  So does this mean UKIP has a secret position on EU withdrawal?  It’s all a bit silly.

Anyway, I hope this post clears up some misconceptions for those who have been reading in large numbers but have kept their thoughts to themselves.

31 Responses to “Does UKIP have a secret position on EU withdrawal?”


  1. 1 TheBoillingFrog 18/08/2013 at 12:07 pm

    What a bollocks response from Tallbloke. All he has to do is ask Tim Asker if he can release the contents of the mail or at least give a gist of what he said. It’s not as if he’s asking to release membership details or similar.

  2. 2 james cooper (@vicarjim4) 18/08/2013 at 12:19 pm

    the answer to the question is I think NOT, speaking to the masses you have to make your point in a few words. trying to complicate the situation is itself complicating. Cameron fails on a number of fronts. First 2017 to late, everyone can read “well just about” and the polls say Cameron will be out of office. Second his statement was a self fulfilling failure because of my number one. Third Cameron never said what he wanted to do or achieve. Another failure. UKIP under Farage may not have all the “T” crossed or the “I “ dotted, but in general terms he has found a couple of weak links that have made UKIP popular. The statement,“ we want out of the E.U.” and UKIPs stand on immigration.
    The current opinion polls if they remain about the same will cause problems for all parties. Milliband might not get a substantial majority, Cameron would have to rely on UKIP and UKIP on Cameron. Clegg would be out of his job. Your idea’s might be sound and perhaps needed in the future , but for now little information might mean more success later.

  3. 3 Sceptical Steve 18/08/2013 at 12:26 pm

    This exchange just seems to confirm the impression that UKIP is more interested in playing party-politics (i.e. being as opaque and anti-democratic as the established political elite) whilst paying lip-service to the notion of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.
    Sorry to see that the UKIP faithful have seen it as being necessary to denigrate you (and the other principled nay-sayers) for pointing out the emptiness of UKIP’s offering. Unless they are forced to confront the truth, their beloved but vacuous party is going to be well and truly trashed when their position is ultimately put to the test.

  4. 4 Restoring Britain 18/08/2013 at 12:38 pm

    The plan sounds like Obamacare – “you’ve got to vote for it to see what’s in it.

  5. 5 TheBoillingFrog 18/08/2013 at 12:40 pm

    In view of this post I’ve just asked Tim Aker myself via his website, to his credit he replied within 10 minutes. I now know UKIP’s policy (sort of) by the contents of his mail but Tim asked for me to keep the “correspondence between us for the time being”.

    I now find myself in the odd and uncomfortable position of Tallbloke.

  6. 6 Sean O'Hare 18/08/2013 at 12:57 pm

    @TBF Me too! I replied asking them not to take too long in making it public.

  7. 7 Sue Jameson 18/08/2013 at 12:58 pm

    It really doesn’t take too much brain power to work out that an exit has to be done as amiably as possible. We have ties with so many countries, both with trade and expats. We cannot simply announce we are leaving and hope for the best. We have months of negotiations ahead if we are to maintain diplomatic relationships with other members.

  8. 8 Sue Jameson 18/08/2013 at 1:00 pm

    TheBoillingFrog – Blimey, is it a secret? How pathetic.

  9. 9 Anthem 18/08/2013 at 1:03 pm

    Anthem – if you engage in personal rubbish like this then you won’t be welcome to comment again.

  10. 10 Bruce 18/08/2013 at 1:30 pm

    Hi AM,

    i was going to leave a comment to your earlier post when you were obviously sounding hacked off and asked for people’s views. I didn’t because what I wrote sounded angry and bitter and I felt that would have been unfair to someone who I basically agree with on so many issues.

    My frustration and annoyance with you and Richard is nothing to do with whether or not you might be intellectuals (I don’t know if you are but I know that Tallbloke is, as would anyone who reads his blog). It’s not about your statement that you don’t care who leads the cause but how it’s led. Both are irrelevant: it’s the result that matters. It’s not even your dismissal of just about everyone who doesn’t share your/Richard’s opinion as “stupid” – I could go back over a few posts and highlight some of the insults you and Richard hurl around but I wont.

    My problem is your constant denigration of what is the only realistic point of focus for people who want out of the EU. If you had something that you could put in place of UKIP and its leadership then that would be different. But you don’t. The Harrowgate Agenda is a nice idea but is an intellectual goal only (Ha! Maybe you and Richard are intellectuals after all!). By the time even a tiny fraction of one percent of the UK population knows anything about it we’ll be decades into a US of E. You and Richard seem to have been once part of UKIP but then left. Would you care to tell us the party’s share of the vote while you were involved and remind us what it’s been in recent elections? I know correlation isn’t causation (although you don’t judging by the way you blamed Farage for the recent tailing off in polls in what is, in fact, the start of the establishment’s assault on UKIP) but someone wishing to be unkind might notice a link between your non-involvement with UKIP and its increase in share of the vote.

    You point out that plotting a way out of the EU isn’t rocket science but proceed to claim that Farage must be “stupid” (I think that’s your favourite term) for failing to spell it out. Could it be that Farage knows what he’s doing? Could it be the media isn’t interested? I wonder how many invites Farage gets from the BBC and The Guardian to explain his withdrawal strategy. If he was offered the chance I wonder how many times he’d be up against a biased interviewer and a studio packed with other gests hostile to the UKIP position. Not all publicity is good publicity.

    Suggesting there is a “UKIP can do no wrong” crowd is as simplistic as suggesting you and Richard belong to a “UKIP can do no right” group. We’re sticking with UKIP not because we think it’s faultless but because we believe it is the ONLY possible way out of the EU. The situation is desperate and, unlike you, we can’t wait around forever for a candidate or leader to emerge who we think deserves our vote. We can’t wait for the uber-niche notion of the HA to gain any sort of traction at all when the reality is that no-one gives a stuff. We’ve got an urgent problem facing us. The stakes are unbelievably high. Whether you like it or not or are prepared to acknowledge it or not, UKIP IS the only game in town. If you don’t agree, I’d be interested to hear your alternative – and I don’t mean an intellectual alternative. Let’s hear a plan from you that recognises the urgency of the situation and shows a viable way out of Europe that is likely to win the backing of a sizeable percentage of the population and not just a few folk in a North Yorkshire town.

  11. 11 fjpickett 18/08/2013 at 1:45 pm

    Whatever UKIP’s shortcomings, it seems reasonable to assume that they are our only hope to get out of the EU. Are you sure you’re not letting the best become the enemy of the good?

  12. 12 Richard North 18/08/2013 at 2:09 pm

    In response to Boiling Frog’s post on EU Referendum Forum, and linking back here, commenting on the absurdity of UKIP’s position, I have made my own response:

    http://www.eureferendum.com/forum/yaf_postsm18706_UKIP–come-friendly-bus.aspx#post18706

    I am also posting it below, as my response to this narrative. It will be my only contribution to this debate and I will not be revisiting it. Complain at will about my “arrogance” and anything else you might … I am sure those of you who want to tell me what a “tosser” I am will find your own words highly informative and cathartic:

    I’ve little patience for it (UKIP’s response). Equally, you see some hostile comments on AM, one author of which asks for an “alternative” plan for getting out. They keep themselves in ignorance (one talks about only having looked at my site once) and then we see this demand for something that has already been produced, is available and searchable.

    All you have to do is type “exit plan” on EU Ref and you get plenty of reading matter. But very quickly you will come to this …

    http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=83865

    But these people do not read EU Referendum, not now or ever. Now they claim they do not read it because of my offensive tone or some such excuse, but the truth is they have never read it, and would not read it now for any reason. All they are doing is justifying in a self-serving way that which they would not do anyway.

    These people, therefore, choose to be ill-informed. They are deliberately exclusive in their reading, and then have the nerve to complain that we have not spoon-fed them with the details they now demand, but in the places that they deign to read. It is, it seems, our responsibility to keep them informed in a manner and in a place of their choosing, and no part of theirs to keep themselves informed.

    Thus does one commenter complain that I am wont to point out stupidity when I see it, as if it was my fault for pointing it out. Never once does it occur that, against the indefatigable stupidity that one meets from some UKIP members, there is no defence.

    No least, these people seem to have no understanding that, if ever we get to a referendum, they will not be part of the official (i.e., funded) “no/out” campaign, as that must be fought by a broad-based, non-party group. Far from being the “only game in town”, when it comes to the real battle, UKIP won’t even be in the main game. On current form, it’s role will not be to win the campaign but, on current form, it has the capability to lose it for us.

    But then, insulting Richard North is a much easier option than getting down to fighting and winning the battle. I am glad to be of service in providing a target.

  13. 13 Bruce 18/08/2013 at 2:39 pm

    Don’t know if you’re including me in your list of people who don’t read your website, Richard. I’ve been reading it for at least two years, probably longer but I’m hopeless at looking back and coming up with a date. I’m aware of how exit from the EU might be achieved in your view. What I don’t see is any way of making your plan a reality or addressing the urgency of the situation. By what mechanism might your plan be brought about quickly? How would you go about establishing a focal point for anti-EU sentiment in rapid fashion? How do you invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty? As far as I’m aware, it’s not possible for just anyone to climb to the top of a hill and shout, “I invoke Article 50!”

    You and AM are great at stating, “Here’s what must be done to leave the EU”. You have failed to draw up a road map showing how each of these conditions might be achieved. Therefore, you have presented no practical alternative to UKIP. You have done the easy part but have not delivered on the really important bit. UKIP are not yet in a position to deliver exit from the EU but they might be in a couple of years. That’s why we stick with them.

  14. 14 Anthem 18/08/2013 at 2:47 pm

    Hehe. Personal rubbish? And your constant character assassination of Farage isn’t personal rubbish?

    Whatever dude. It’s your blog, I think I’ll live without being welcome to comment on it.

    Toodlepip.

  15. 15 Autonomous Mind 18/08/2013 at 2:51 pm

    Character assassination? If you think my legitimate criticisms of Farage’s lack of performance and failure to move UKIP forward is akin to character assassination then you can’t get out very much.

  16. 16 Sceptical Steve 18/08/2013 at 4:19 pm

    Bruce, you seem to misunderstand the realities of our political system, which is not fair and it’s certainly not democratic. In the run up to a rigged referendum, the airwaves and the sycophantic press are going to maintain that
    1. The UK Government (of whatever complexion) has listened to your grievance and has negotiated “binding and significant” opt- outs. Call it (as John Major did) “Localism”, or find a new cozy buzz-word.
    2. “Three million jobs” will be “at risk” if Britain decides to “leave Europe”.
    3. UKIP is an organisation created only to focus on the disillusion of the white British middle-classe with the current state of the country.

    Sorry, but if you let the mainstream establishment make all the running, as UKIP are at the moment, including the creation of their own Fifth-Column “anti-EU” Umbrella Groups, you will be comprehensively out-manoeuvred and marginalised.

    If UKIP are up for it, they must develop their vision for how they are to win the referendum, how they are going to defuse the lies that are already being circulated by the media as to the dangers of withdrawal, and to create a credible, positive and uplifting visiion of what life would be like for the British in the years immediately after our withdrawal from the EU.

  17. 17 Nailer 18/08/2013 at 4:46 pm

    Spectacular – again – AM!

    “Secondly, a criticism that has been directed at Richard and me is that we are outside the tent pissing in and should be inside pissing out. We’ve tried that. So have a good number of other sound, qualified and talented people who could have helped UKIP move things forward substantially – but instead have been picked off and driven from the party in case they become more popular than Farage.”

    There are 2 areas that UKIP simply doesn’t “do” – policy detail, and exit strategy. There are 2 things at which it excels – sucking at the public teat (higher-ups only), and stabbing perfectly worthwhile, industrious and committed members in the back, lest they MIGHT grab a candela of limelight from Nigel.

    if they’re concerned about people “outside the tent pissing in”, perhaps they should look at this list:

    http://ukip-vs-eukip.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/0286-doc022-they-quit-ukip-mostly-in.html

    From what I gather, most if not all of the individuals (the list is by no means exhaustive) were the victims of lies and smears, blackmail attempts, fit-ups, etc., in many cases, for reasons unknown to them. (Sometimes, as in my case, by a serial liar / boot-licker reputedly in the pay of the CONservative Party and a UKIP MEP!)

    Trying to have a conversation on policy detail with even “university-educated” ‘KIPpers is like trying to get blood from a stone. Mention “exit strategy” and you’re instantly labelled an enemy of the party and a ‘Nigel hater’. As you well know, AM.

    UKIP – as it stands – represents more of a ‘protest movement’ – like TFA, Bruges Group or CIB, but a serious and credible alternative to the 3 big parties?….No! Not until it develops and idealogical core, and a set of credible policies based around it. Until then, it’s just a bucket for protest votes. The ‘defenders of Nigel’ as here look and sound increasingly like personality cult members.

  18. 18 John Ashworth 18/08/2013 at 4:52 pm

    As a person who was heavily involved in the eurosceptic movement before UKIP, with the Save Britain’s FIsh campaign, we soon learnt you had to be up to the job and not make a single mistake. We won the debate hands down but lost the war, because we did not get the full support of the fishing industry.
    I see UKIP in the same light, they are not up to the job, and can’t win the debate, let alone the war, and like the fishing industry, UKIP sadily are a liability to the eurosceptic movement. Starting a referendum under Farage’s colours is lost before we start, which is tragic as UKIP could have been such a great asset, and winning the debate, but it isn’t happening because it appears there is no desire to do the research to be on top of the job and beat the opposition.

  19. 19 Anthem 18/08/2013 at 5:01 pm

    AM – But you constantly say that the reason Farage (and therefore UKIP and the campaign to withdraw from the EU) has made no progress is because of flaws in his character (he’s paranoid, insecure, hates having people who are smarter than him around and any who display an ounce of intelligence are quickly hounded out of the party, his priority is his position, not the cause etc).

    There are many reasons why UKIP perhaps hasn’t made the progress you believe it should have made and maybe Farage is one of them but I could suggest several others over which Farage has absolutely no control (unfair media representation, for example)

    Let’s not forget the root here. We can argue all day long about whether Farage is working effectively or wisely in his campaign to get us out of the EU but he wasn’t the one who got us into the EU mess in the first place.

    The blame for that lies elsewhere.

    They’re the enemy.

    I just feel that this enemy is huge. It is the mainstream media, the established political parties, the big businesses with vested interest in our membership of the EU etc.

    UKIP is tiny in comparison. It really is David v Goliath and UKIP need all the help and support they can muster.

    If Farage’s personality is so fundamentally and intrinsically flawed as to make UKIP’s stated aim an impossibility with him at the helm then they need a new leader… but who? Where are these people?

    If they don’t exist, why criticise the only guy who’s trying?

    As an aside and I don’t mean this at all sarcastically but is there any reason why someone like yourself or North didn’t contest the UKIP leadership in the past (or did you)?

  20. 20 John Ashworth 18/08/2013 at 5:47 pm

    Save Britain’s FIsh were tiny even compared to UKIP, but we managed it with the media, because we were ahead of the game and hit well above our size because on TV and in the media we could run rings around the opposition.

    UKIP can’t, or unable, to do that. Bruce states they might in a couple of years, but that is playing catch up, being behind the game, and appearing second rate.

    Not everyone wants to be a leader of a party, some prefer and are better at being back rooom boys, but whoever is leader, that person has to have the knowledge, otherwise everytime you are in media you go backwards.

  21. 21 wj (@wj557) 18/08/2013 at 6:01 pm

    In 1940, on becoming Prime Minister, Winston Churchill told his cabinet “I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat.”

    This is how Farage should be framing his approach and then follow it up with a thought through plan.

    At the moment Farage is telling us that he knows of a nice place but gives us no directions to get there – and that it’ll be a short drive with no traffic jams on the way.

    Life’s not like that – people know this and are prepared for the blood, sweat, and tears – as long as we have a plan.

    I have to come to my own decision.

    I will vote for UKIP as a political gesture but when it comes to a EU exit plan I will refer to the site where I have learned so much – EU Referendum.

    Richard North has suggested that he is minded to come up with a plausible Brexit plan, I hope that he does and that he can produce it in pamphlet form (or even a DVD) and I will willingly buy a batch and deliver them to my neighbours.

    Attacks on migrant workers and holding mock burials of the euro are all very well – but it’s time for serious strategy now.

    If we carry on the way we are, we are going to lose whatever referendum is put before us.

  22. 22 Sue Jameson 18/08/2013 at 6:53 pm

    All this bickering is really silly considering we all basically want the same thing, our country back from the tentacles of the EU.

    What a shame we can’t all agree to work together amicably. What a powerful movement it would be and the chances of winning an OUT vote would rise considerably.

    The way things stand now, we don’t have a hope in hell.

  23. 23 Bruce 18/08/2013 at 7:10 pm

    I keep reading from the “AM and Richard North can do no wrong” group (that’s a wee joke – don’t take it seriously) that UKIP aren’t up to the job. Fair enough. I don’t know what’s gone on in the past or what goes on now in UKIP beyond what any informed member of the public would know. But what no-one is saying is how else to get us out of the EU. I’m repeating myself here but AM and Richard have a plan – a blueprint for the steps that would have to be taken to exit the EU – but fail to show exactly how it would be implemented.

    WJ above says Farage “knows of a nice place but gives us no directions to get there”. Well, this blog’s author and his pal have the directions but no means of transport. If Farage can get himself and UKIP into gear, we’ll get there. With AM and Richard and their shortage of a suitable vehicle, we’ll have to learn to walk and by the time we’ve got there the Germans will already have there towels around the pool.

    John Ashworth says my idea that UKIP might be able to deliver on the EU in a couple of years has them playing catch-up, behind the game and appearing second rate. OK, who or what is in a better position RIGHT NOW? Name the person or organisation or political party that has more chance of getting us out of Europe than UKIP? You’ve got a two-year time frame. Who’s it going to be? And please don’t mention the Harrogate Agenda at this point or I’ll not be responsible for my actions.

    Sceptical Steve accuses me of not knowing the realities of our political system. Well, I was a newspaper journalist for 32 years and think I have a good grasp of how local and national governments works and am under no illusions about the “calibre” of many politicians. But if Steve’s remarks re a rigged ballot couldn’t be overcome then we’d all be as well packing it in right now.

    AM and his supporters seem to me to be the ones who don’t get it. They seem to think it should be an easy matter to come from nowhere to challenging the Big Three yet they couldn’t manage it when they were involved with UKIP. On the only level I know Farage – which is the same one that probably 99.9% of voters inhabit – he’s a good guy with a likeable persona who is capable of reaching across political divides and social strata. Those are key qualities, whether they’re real or not – for someone trying to appeal to voters right across the country (I’ll excuse my brain-dead Scottish countrymen from this target audience because most of them are beyond reach).

    Now, having said that, I’ll agree that it is possible, as with any political party, that the leader has taken it as far he can. That might be the situation with Farage but I don’t think so. But if it is, then the solution is not to say “Farage is crap, here’s what needs to be done but there’s no-one of sufficient intelligence/stature/gravitas (delete as appropriate) who deserves my vote so I’m just going to tend bees on the south downs”. Is it?

  24. 24 Anthem 18/08/2013 at 7:20 pm

    @Bruce: Superbly put

  25. 25 wj (@wj557) 18/08/2013 at 7:35 pm

    Bruce

    It’s about sustaining an attack – Farage has done brilliantly in attracting audiences and members but after the show people are going to start looking for substance.
    It may be as you suggest that the leader has taken it as far as he can.

    We have now seen that the more success that UKIP achieve the more their leadership are going to come under scrutiny. Off-shore accounts and bongo-bongo land are just the start.

    Maybe we dissenters should just slink off and be quiet – it’s just that I wanted UKIP to be different from the rest of the mob.

    I really am a hairs breadth away from not bothering at all.

  26. 26 John Ashworth 18/08/2013 at 7:40 pm

    Sue is correct you don’t want bickering, but sadly we have had that since Masstricht. Bruce I can’t answer all your questions, but SBF were the ones up to 2002 who showed how we could leave the CFP which also applied to the EU, which as far as I can see is roughly the UKIP position now. What has changed the overall position is the Lisbon treaty, but UKIP haven’t moved with the times. Maybe the electorate don’t yet see that, but this lack of knowledge prevents UKIP hammering the 3 main parties, which they now have the opportunity to do. Like WJ I will vote UKIP as a protest vote but I have no confidence they can win a referendum, as stated I believe unless they up their performance, we can’t win. I am purely speaking from previous experience.in this arena.

  27. 27 fjpickett 18/08/2013 at 8:38 pm

    “people are going to start looking for substance”

    The Labour party still are! :-)

  28. 28 Judd 18/08/2013 at 9:31 pm

    Why would a band of freedom fighters pre announce to the dictator state…for the enemy has everything going for it here… what their plans are for the forthcoming war.

    Sorry if this seems simplistic to the big brained dogs here who can’t leave the bloody bone alone, but sometimes things are quite simple.

    I wonder if some realise just how much succour these discussions give to the established traitors at the trough, the small band of freedom fighters at each others throats instead of uniting under the banner of my enemies enemy is my enemy.

    We are united in defiance nay hatred of the EU and all it stands for, can we not put differences behind us for the greater good, Farage leading UKIP for all its faults is the only game in town for people like us, there’s no bloody shining knight an white charger coming up the high street, we have what we have and hopefully we’ll keep our powder dry and our plans as hidden as we can from the enemy till the gloves come off.

    Regards

    Judd

  29. 29 Bruce 18/08/2013 at 9:47 pm

    Well said, Judd. It’s a real shame that, in acting in accordance with his sincerely held beliefs, AM is doing damage to UKIP with a blog that the establishment would struggle to better even with the BBC’s funding behind it.

  30. 30 Audrey Quattro 18/08/2013 at 9:48 pm

    Even the present Government don’t have plans for an EU exit, no Government does or ever will – they will leave all that to the mandarin’s of Whitehall to figure out.

    Assuming there ever IS a referendum and assuming the vote IS for ‘out’ then it’s irrelevant who will be running the country as Whitehall will be doing the ‘difficult stuff’. That’s what they’re paid for.

    The fight isn’t to get an ‘out’ vote (right now) nor to discuss the details of the ‘how’, nor to get UKIP into Parliament (as far as I’m concerned – although that wouldn’t be too bad) – currently the fight is to highlight that we CAN and MUST leave the EU before it drags us to ‘extinction’.

    The mainstream parties will NEVER highlight EU failures or incompetence – they won’t even acknowledge that they’re only puppets of their EU masters’ instructions. Policies that instill anger amongst the public are seldom revealed to be EU instructions (demands) except where anti-EU voices expose them as such.

    UKIP are doing a fair job of keeping the necessary issues to the fore – even if it means taking flak for inappropriate comments. EU Immigration, the expense of being part of the EU, ridiculous EU legislation, foreign aid etc are ALL issues the public have animosities over and keeping those in the headlines will keep the public animosity high – and hopefully swing an in/out vote the right way.

    UKIP, in my opinion, are a vehicle for our angst – and only that. If, as a by-product, they get seats in Parliament that wouldn’t be a bad thing.

  31. 31 Jacq 18/08/2013 at 10:09 pm

    I agree totally with Sue Jameson. Although many people feel justified in letting their frustrations boil over, the emotional energy might be best channelled into circulating the positive vision of Britain outside the EU.

    And as the detail becomes clear, how the vision might become a reality with some clear steps that need to be taken. Most UKIP members in my experience can think for themselves and would probably welcome anything that will help win the referendum they seek.

    Rome wasn’t built in a day, and the Treaty of Rome (and its successors) won’t be overpicked overnight.

    Four things give me hope. One is that when the media broadcast propaganda stories, readers are quick to express their disbelief online. Two is that when you talk to ordinary people you don’t know in a pub, they spontaneously say that they don’t think we should be in the EU. Three is that business is concerned about maintaining trade, but even more concerned about further integration. Four is that Cameron is not convincing on bringing powers back, and even if it were possible (I think not) the public is not sold and the typical response is to just want out.


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